Erdoğan exploits coup aftermath (reply to the discussion)
Talks2010sPhil HearsePhil Hearse, co-author of* Dictatorship and Resistance in Turkey and Kurdistan*, replying to the discussion on how the Turkish regime is using the failed coup to secure its grip on society.
A corrected transcript of the recording. The recording is the authority.
00:00 Phil Hearse: ...we're in a new situation. And there are those problems of the organisation of the solidarity movement – that's clear – about what campaigns and so on. But the objective situation, I mean, now it's going to be very easy to take the question of solidarity against the repression into the universities, for example. Already in the National Union of Journalists there's a tradition of campaigning in defence of journalists who are imprisoned, victimised.
00:30 And so this can be spread out through a whole series of organisations. This has got to get to somewhere where there's a campaigning ethos and not just a getting-a-signature-from-a-general-secretary ethos, which is a bit of a problem at the moment. That's why they kind of– you know, it's good to get the support of the GMB or Unite. Unite took 50 copies of our pamphlet – their international department – down to their conference, for example. And so we've only sent it to a few unions; perhaps [we should] send it to some more. So that's going to be ongoing; we have to keep it under review.
01:05 But look, Socialist Resistance – shamefully, I would say, for the whole of the British left – Socialist Resistance is the only organisation that has [produced? [inaudible]] the Left Unity pamphlet, where the two people who wrote it are in Socialist Resistance. So we're in a good position here to take this up: renew our commitment to this campaign.
01:35 About the PKK, ISIS and the Americans. You know, about three weeks ago that American magazine called Foreign Affairs – quite serious magazine, a lot of rubbish, and it has quite interesting stuff – three weeks ago there was a long and detailed article titled "What do you do with a problem like Erdoğan?" Three weeks later, the searing critique – I would say we'd agree 95% with what they say – from the point of view of the United States: they are burnishing [?] their critique of this guy.
02:15 And I'm not sure that Erdoğan has a complete plan. I don't think he planned all this 18 months ago; he responded to the election result of June 2015. And, you know, as Sarah said, yes, he's a gambler, right? And I'm not sure it's so good for the bourgeoisie in Turkey to take this sharp attitude to the United States and to the European Union. But now it's clear, with the death penalty and so on, he says, "We don't care what they think." And also the critique of the United States is very, very sharp: "Why are you supporting these terrorists?"
02:55 And then we come across some things which some people on the left get very iffy about. Like, for example, the liberation of Kobanî by the YPG. Let's face it, a significant amount of that was due to the fact that ISIS were having the shit [?] bombed out of them by the United States Air Force, Navy Air Force. What did we say about that? At the Left Unity conference in November 2014 there were a lot of people who were saying, "No, no, no, down with imperialism." But even more people have discovered some American soldiers, what they call special forces, fighting with the YPG.
03:40 And actually, very embarrassing for American imperialism: some of them had got these badges and stitched them to their uniforms, and they got told very quickly to take them off. OK, this is an alliance which is historic and [can't?] last very long; these are tactical things, where I think you have to take a view, and not just say "no collaboration with imperialism". Well, "we don't want you to bomb ISIS" – well, we're trying to drive them out of this city. I don't think that's right.
04:13 Now, what Mustafa said I think is absolutely right, in terms of resistance to Erdoğan and the AKP. The Kurds and the Kurdish question is absolutely central, because of the history of the struggle. The Kurdish population is ultra-politicised. It doesn't mean that all of it supports the PKK, but just go to a college in North London: if you meet some students who are really radicalised, their parents are PKK, OK – that's where they are – PKK, PKK sympathisers.
04:45 And I think this business of confederalism – well, see, I don't think we can take the view we have a single solution to the national question. The solution to the national question is you should demand– properly demand real self-determination of people. Your own state; and if you don't, you're not doing the correct thing. So their position of confederalism, it reminds me a little bit of the position of Subcomandante Marcos and the EZLN [?] in Chiapas. Their position is not independence for Chiapas, independence for the indigenous people – although arguably they're a different nationality, whether a nation, that's another question – but for the democratisation of Mexico.
05:45 And I think the Kurdish movement is going to be absolutely fundamental to the outcome of the struggle in Turkey. Look, nobody should repeat the regime slander that the HDP is just a front for the PKK. Of course not. But whose idea was the HDP? Who thought of it? Actually, I've got a clue: he is a prisoner on an island at the present time. And let's put it this way: I think there are friendly relations between the PKK and lots of the leaders of the HDP. It would be naive not to admit that. And the HDP wouldn't exist without the Kurdish component of that.
06:25 So it's absolutely fundamental. But if the Kurdish struggle is absolutely fundamental to the resolution of this crisis in Turkey and northern Syria, then we can talk in the abstract about the Kurdish movement, but you mean the PKK, to be honest. The PKK is absolutely hegemonic in the Kurdish resistance. It's not unchallenged amongst the Kurds, because there's this [inaudible] Barzani – one of the Mafia families in The Godfather Part II is called the Barzini family, as people like to point out – but these people are just crooks, rubbish.
07:20 And so for us, I must say, look, I'm not saying we should take a position of 100% support for whatever the PKK's line is. And their line of democracy from the bottom up – you can say, "oh, this is just a cynical business, we know the old Stalinists" and so on – but if you keep going around telling a million, two million people who support you, "organise yourself from the bottom up", it has an effect on mass consciousness. You can't suddenly say, "oh no, you can't have that any more".
07:50 And if you say women's equality in everything, and a 40% minimum quota, and co-mayors [?] – one of them has got to be a woman – and "women, come out of your house and organise yourself", and set up women's units in the YPG and the guerrilla fighters in general: it has a massive impact. Kurdish society will never be the same again in relation to the role of women because of the [inaudible] of the PKK. You can't deny it. So I'm not saying we should just be a PKK fan club, but we should have an objective view of what's involved in it.
08:26 So the next discussion– the leadership – I think the Socialist Resistance National Committee meets on Saturday about this, but I think at that meeting it shouldn't just be an analytical thing, or a disputed question: organising solidarity should be an absolutely key component of it. Thank you very much.